Yesterday, I posted a Top Ten list. I rarely engage in lists because I am really bad at them. I always worry I will forget something important. And I find ordering things based on subjective reasoning to be extremely frustrating. I enjoy debating (and ripping apart) other people’s lists. But I hate making my own.
The response to this list was so positive, I may have to rethink my stance and start posting more Top Ten lists in the future. But for now, I thought I’d write a follow-up to yesterday’s list.
First of all, a number of readers were kind enough to post their own list. I thought I’d collect them all here for easy reading:
Here’s a link to my original list.
daffystardust’s list
10. Spider-Man
9. Superman 2
8. Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
7. X-Men 2
6. Unbreakable
5. Watchmen
4. The Incredibles
3. Iron Man
2. The Dark Knight
1. Spider-Man 2
Geo’s list
10 Superman II
9 Hellboy II
8 Batman Begins
7 Spider-Man
6 X-Men II
5 The Dark Knight
4 Iron Man
3 Hellboy
2 Spider-Man II
1 Superman
xxadverbxx‘s list
10. X2
9. Thor
8. Spiderman
7. Superman Returns
6. Spiderman 2
5. The Dark Knight
4. Captain America
3. Iron Man
2. Batman Begins
1. Superman: The Movie
Honorable Mention: Kickass
(If anyone else feels like posting their lists, I’ll add them to the body of the text.)
All great lists, by the way. On another day, in another mood, with a different set of criteria, I could see myself making lists very much like these.
Based on the responses in the comments section and some of the responses my list got on Facebook, I thought I’d share a few observations.
On my original list, I decided to try to prioritize traditional super heroes over gritty deconstructions of super heroes. That’s why I left off Watchmen and Kick Ass. Both movies have their merits. But I don’t feel entirely comfortable with either of them. Especially Kick Ass which I think crosses a line into ugly territory at the end.
I haven’t read the comic book Kick Ass is based on. But I have that response to most of Mark Millar’s work. I thought the comic Wanted was based on was vile.
I really like Unbreakable, but I left it off my list in favor of movies I considered to be more fun like Captain America and Thor. Thor seemed to be a particularly decisive inclusion. Some people praised me for including it while others called for it to be cast out of Asgard.
I was also surprised by the love for Captain America with more than one person telling me it should rank higher than 9th. I expected people to be critical of me for including it at all. The reviews, while largely positive, were mixed. And the box office was respectable, but it came in under Thor. Apparently, those of us who enjoyed it are very enthusiastic.
The most common complaint about my list was the exclusion of the Burton Batman. A lot of people remember the 1989 Batman fondly. I know I do. In 1989, it was a really fun movie even if it didn’t make a whole lot of sense.
My problem is that everything that the Burton film got right, subsequent super hero movies have done better. Both of Nolan’s Batman films are better Batman movies. As great as Nicholson was as the Joker, he seems like Ceasar Romero when you put him up against Heath Ledger. These days, all you’re left with is Tim Burtons visuals (which are a feature of every Tim Burton movie), Danny Elfman’s score and a Batman with no peripheral vision. Long story short, I don’t think it holds up.
I respect the heck out of Batman Returns for taking so many chances. But only about half of them pay off. For the most part, if Michelle Pfeiffer or Christopher Walken aren’t chewing scenery, the movie is a mess. 10 years ago, it would have made the list. But with so many fun super hero movies out there to choose from, Batman Returns got squeezed out.
Which brings me to another point. I think we can all agree that CGI (for all its “evils”) has allowed for a golden age of super hero movies. Now that film-makers can depict Spider-man swinging over rooftops and Captain America launching his mighty shield, comic book heroes can be adapted to the big screen like never before. The only limitation seems to be the imagination of the film-makers.
But that technology doesn’t necessarily make for better super hero movies. No super hero movie has made more use of CGI than last summer’s Green Lantern. And that movie positively drowned in its CGI. It overpowered any human element the story might have had.
I was also heartened by the shared affection for Superman: The Movie. All of us “men of a certain age” remember it fondly. Superman 2 shared in some of that love. But many (myself included) feel it hasn’t aged as well as the first film.
Just for fun, I thought I’d end by running down my 5 least favorite super hero movies of all time:
(Having never seen Catwoman, it is not on my list. I’m sure it would be if I ever made myself endure it. I am also leaving off low-budget cheapies like Steel or the Roger Corman Fantastic Four. Those movies aren’t meant to be taken seriously.)
Supergirl – After the Salkinds basically killed the Superman franchise with Superman 3, they tried to spin off a Supergirl series. Helen Slater was perfectly cast as the Maid of Steel. But everything else about this movie is terrible!
Punisher – Any version. Take your pick. One, I just don’t care for the character. But two, Hollywood has never done a good job with him anyway.
The Spirit – Proof that Frank Miller has lost his mind. This movie is not competent in any way. It is easily the worst movie on the list. But since it is such a minor character, I don’t consider it a major crime. So I’ll rank it in the middle of the pack.
Batman and Robin – It’s probably not as bad as it’s reputation. But I’m still mad about seeing Batman whip out the Bat credit card. This movie made me groan in pain repeatedly. I have never endured a second viewing.
Superman 4: The Quest for Peace – Oh, how the mighty have fallen! Even Christopher Reeve can’t save his final Superman movie. If you thought it couldn’t get worse than Superman 3 (a Richard Pryor movie guest starring Superman) you were wrong. Superman 4 lowered the bar in every regard.
I actually kind of liked Punisher 1, but it’s probably because I like Thomas Jane. I agree the movie as a whole was kind of weak but it wasn’t horrible enough to be on my list of least favorites. As an aside if you want to see good Thomas Jane roles check out Stander and 61*. He turns in fine performances in both. You’re right about The Spirit. It was just plain weird, and I never did follow what was happening. I don’t even remember much about it now except that I didn’t like it. I know some folks placed… Read more »
Honestly, I picked the Punisher for my worst of list mostly so I could make a joke about all three of them being interchangeably bad. I didn’t hate the Dolph Lundgren or Thomas Jane versions. I didn’t like them either. Never saw the third but heard realy bad things about it. As an aside, I’m undecided on Thomas Jane. Obviously, I saw him in The Punisher. I remember seeing Deep Blue Sea and thinking he was destined for stardom. (ooops) I saw him in The Mist, which I hated! But Jane was fine in it. He had a very funny… Read more »
Funny you mentioning Aaron Ekhardt; I actually confused one of his movies I liked thinking it was Thomas Jane in the role. I’m talking about No Smoking Allowed. That was a very funny and entertaining indie dramedy. Ekhardt is a fine actor too so my memory lapse does not reflect at all on either actors capabilities but rather my own faulty synapses. Age is a bitch! Stallone (insert symbol for confused emoticon). I don’t get why he’s a big deal. He can’t speak or act at all. Everything he does and says comes off very “hammy”. I only just learned… Read more »
Loved Thank you for Smoking!
I know I’m going to draw ire from our resident movieman, but I was never remotely a Stallone fan. I liked the Rocky movies up to a point. First Blood was good. But Stallone’s presence in a movie is a deterrent to me.
I was a Penelope Ann Miller fanclub of one back in the 90s. I even saw Year of the Comet! I don’t think Tim Daly sat through that stinker and he was in it! But even Miller at the top of her Yowza couldn’t save The Shadow. She came pretty close though…
Hey, hey! What a coincidence, I just beat Arkham Asylum (PS3) which I got as a present. Man, it was very well done. OK, the lists are great for conversations and discussions. I LOVED DC comics from the time I first learned how to read up until the 4th grade. That’s when I met me best friend (to this day) who introduced me to MAD, National Lampoon, and Marvel Comics. After that, DC seemed too clean and virginal. I never did lose me soft spot for Batman. he was not only a super-hero, but also the world’s greatest living detective.… Read more »
The Arkham games are almost reason enough for me to invest in a PS. Thing is, I’m really bad at video games and my kids wouldn’t give me a chance to play. Instead, time permitting, I have been playing DC Universe Online. I’m sure it’s not nearly as good as the Arkham games, but it is free and requires very little skill. I saw some of one of those Dr. Strange movies when I was a kid. But the station was one we just barely got in when I held the rabbit ears just right. So it was grainy and… Read more »
As far as Bat casting goes, my feeling is that the worst Batman movie had the actor who was most ‘right’ for the role. While “Batman & Robin” was frightfully inept, I thought it was a real shame, because Clooney could have been great with the right script. It wouldn’t have been the same kind of Batman as we got from Nolan, but it could’ve been a very valid Batman nonetheless.
Okay, (he says, bracing himself and wincing) everybody can pile on now.
I don’t think anyone’s going to disagree with you (except for Andy Movieman). Clooney could have been a great Batman. But no one could have saved Batman and Robin. I only fault Clooney in so much as he agreed to do it.
In a way I believe the Burton films did not really pave the way for Batman Begins. Nolan had to reboot the films and from what I gathered having seen some interviews (or was it special feature discussion?), Nolan had some trouble convincing the studio to let him make a new Batman movie. That it was a hard sell just for how badly the last Batman movies had spiraled into… well crap. If anything, The first two Reeves Superman films should be given credit to really starting the hero craze, even if the third was pretty bad the the fourth… Read more »
On the Burton films paving the way for the Nolan films: It depends on your point of view. Superman: the Movie broke down walls. It showed that people could take super heroes seriously. The Burton films showed that there was a heck of a lot of money to be made in super hero movies. And they showed that super heroes could be kind of dark. But, yeah, under Schumacher they also imploded and killed the franchise. I would say the success of Spider-man was probably more directly responsible for the Nolan films getting made than the Burton films. But if… Read more »
Steam does random sales on and off throughout the year, but they tend to have a bigger one sometime in the summer (forgot what time of the summer), and then a lot more starting around Thanksgiving and going till a little after the New Year. The sale tends to have I think 8 or 10 games (or game packages) a day put on discount for 24 hours before they swap it up. Another time certain games will tend to go on sale is if its getting close for a new sequel to come out, or if something else that could… Read more »
You’re keeping me busy LeBeau. Let me think this out and I’ll post my list tonight. I can tell you right now, that Superman IV and Batman and Robin will be included.
Can’t wait to see the full list.
I used this list to limit my choices, keeping in mind your restrictions as well (no Steel, etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_superhero_films
I haven’t seen The Spirit, Catwoman, Elektra, Supergirl, and a few others, but surprisingly I’ve seen most of the films on that list.
From best to worst….
5 Captain America (1990)
4 Batman Forever
3 Superman III
2 Batman & Robin
1 Superman IV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8rFsmhNTc
I have not seen the 1990 Cap. I hear it’s horrid. I did watch the Cap TV movies. Loved them as a kid but I’d never want to revisit them. I don’t hate Batman Forever. Sure, it set up absolutely everything that was awful about Batman and Robin. But to me, Forever was just shy of awful. Tommy Lee Jones should be embarassed. But there was just enough entertainment value for Batman Forever to avoid my scorn. If Batman and Robin didn’t exist to put Batman Forever in perspective, I might feel differently. I feel the same way about Superman… Read more »
From a marketing perspective, the coolest thing about Superman III was the poster.
My worst list would have to include Superman IV and 1989 Punisher for sure. I really want to see Nick Fury: Agent of Shield (1998 film staring: HASSELHOFF!). I’ve heard it was really laughable by a friend. Some odd reason too, that Cap. America preview made it seem the movie could be passable at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joZODFleOaA <– Hasselhoff Fury. He seems that (at times) he can pull off a good Fury look, but that seems to be about it.
I remember watching the Hasselhoff Nick Fury movie. It was cheese-tastic! I was disappointed it didn’t get picked up for a series.
That is a pretty sweet poster. I miss old school movie posters, I gotta tell ya.
Don’t know if we’ve talked about this before, but I think they were going for a similar angle with one of the original ideas for Star Trek IV with Eddie Murphy. Murphy has since been in leading roles, but at the time he had always been the comedic sidekick.
http://aperturequiet.blogspot.com/2010/02/star-trek-iv-starring-eddie-murphy.html
On another note, being a Superman fan, I’m sure you’re quite aware of the original Superman III concept that was rejected by WB.
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/UltimateSuperman/news/?a=39421
Yeah, I remember hearing about Murphy and Star Trek back when it was still a possibility. Gotta figure that turned out for the best.
I have read some synopsis of the Salkind proposal for Superman 3. But your link provided even more (horrific) details. Bits of that obviously made their way into the final Superman 3 and Supergirl.
If it weren’t for Donner, I shudder to think what those Superman movies would have been like. For one, Burt Reynolds (or someone equally ill-suited) probably would have been Superman.
http://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/media/library/images/movies/superman-lives-nicolas-cage.jpg
…sorry
Talk about dodging a bullet. Kevin Smith’s self-promoting usually annoys me. But his stories about the Cage/Burton Superman are pretty damn funny.
hmmm…new topic? Favorite movie posters?
Sounds like a winner to me!
Ok, LeBeau, I’m ready. Go ahead and start the movie poster topic now 😉
I like the sound of that!
Looking at my list again, at this moment I’d probably swap Returns and S2 about, and the same with Thor and X2. All that different day, slightly different feel and all. But I don’t think I’d actually take anything off of it. I feel I should iterate I was trying to follow your guideline of a superhero movie, and as they greatly change the scope of what can go on the list, I also left out animated movies. I basically agree with your Burton take. The second one I think is better, but having seen them both a couple years… Read more »
On a different day, I’d rank my films differently too. That’s just the nature of lists, I think. So, if you were to go with a less strict super-hero list, what would you have included? I think DeVito’s Penguin is… interesting. To me, he’s the weakest part of the movie. Which isn’t DeVito’s fault at all. The Penquin was a victim of too many rewrite. They never got a consistent take on the character. So he changes plans and motives every five minutes. Whereas Nicholson got to steal the spotlight just be being Nicholson, DeVito had to deal with Pfeiffer… Read more »
It has been a while since last I saw that movie, but Devito can be a really great actor and he at least had the looks for it. He does change faces quite a bit during the film, but he did a good job (another casualty to the script?) with what he had to work with. Keaton worked with me as a kid, but before it all I knew was reruns of Adam West Batman, so not much to compare it to until after the animated series started. Thinking of head turning too, Nolan did a good job of changing… Read more »
Thanks for the tip on Steam – I’ll keep an eye out! I think Batman Returns (and DeVito in particular) were victims of the script. Returns got rewitten to death! Funny story about the Luthor wig. It was done that way to accomodate Hackman who refused to shave his head. In fact, Hackman refused to shave his mustache either. But Donner eventually convinced him to do that much. I believe Donner had a full beard which he shaved in order to convince Hackman to shave his lip if not his head. I considered the DCU direct-to-video features. (Although Public Enemies… Read more »
If I was doing an animated one, I’d include non-DC (like Marvel) with it. If you limit it to just direct to video releases though, you would knock out a couple films (Mask of Phantasm I think is one?). Under the Red Hood would be another that would tempt me, Year One is a little iffy somewhat for the VAs didn’t do a great job (mostly Batman), though it would probably make a purely animated list for me. And I loved Public Enemies, even if they watered down the comic story a lot. Granted, I was completely giddy over the… Read more »
Personally, I was not a fan of Loeb on Superman/Batman. Public Enemies is really the storyline where Loeb and I parted ways. I loved the first issue, but every issue after that got dumber. By the end, Loeb just completely lost me. So really, there was very little chance I was going to like the adaptation. It dumbed down something I thought was too dumb to begin with. I did like Under the Red hood more than I expected. And Year One was good (one voice actor aside). I really liked All Star Superman. Wonder Woman is a favorite. Green… Read more »
I actually think I saw the movie before I read through that arc in the comics. Still if nothing else, I loved the movie for it basically being one big fight after another while showing many times Batman kicking ass vs. metas (which can be hard to realistically do when he is paired with Superman) and the return of Daly and Conroy which is a great team. Believe I enjoyed the film actually more than the movie (save the cameo of Nightwing), while Apocalypse I enjoyed the comic better than the movie. Not that I was a huge fan of… Read more »
Pretty much in agreement on the Batman/Superman films then. Only you liked it for many of the reasons I didn’t like it. I actually posted reviews of both on read/RANT. I recommended Public Enemies for anyone who just wanted to see a lot of fights. And I also liked the return of Conroy and Daly. I preferred both movies to the comics they were based on. But none were great stories. I have to rewatch Wonder Woman. But at the time, it was my favorite of the bunch. I had low expectations of Emerald Knights, but really liked it much… Read more »
Just checked, but I had forgotten Rosenbaum was not the voice for Flash in that Superman ep Speed Demons. Also forgot Smallville started before JL. Otherwise the other main one is John Glover for being in both. And of course the roles (or cameos) picked up by many of the old Superman movie cast in Smallville. But we are suddenly veering off badly.
Speaking of off topics, if you have any suggestions for a top ten of best actors/actresses in Superhero roles (VAs excluded) you should check out the board.
Shoot, I have not been on the board in a long, long time! I should drop by!
Don’t worry about veering off topic. We do it all the time. I’d estimate a good 30-40% of articles spin out of tangents in the comments section.
I did not remember Glover did JLU!
Glover was in Batman the Animated Series as the Riddler, which is a character I don’t think ever made it over to the JL series. But he at least was still part of the DCAU.
I also love Hackman as Luthor. I do think Hackman gets across a threatening streak under his surface smarminess which adds the necessary layer of evil to the character. But mostly it’s just a darn entertaining and hilarious performance with each and every line delivered in an incredibly expert fashion. It actually reminds me very much of Gene Wilder’s Willy Wonka performance. Both of them seem to take a perverse delight in torturing other people. They both seem to look down on the other characters as simpletons and idiots and enjoy lecturing them. They’re both extremely witty in an almost… Read more »
Nice comparison between Hackman and Wilder. Very true.
I have not heard that version of the mustache story before. If it’s not true, it should be.
WOW! Can’t believe lebeau doesn’t like the original Batman movie. I’m not sure I like him anymore… Super hero movies are essentially crap and very few are any good. Even the more serious ones feel really dumbed down. But the original Batman movie doesn’t suffer for that. It has aged remarkably, I think…
Batman Returns is kind of bad though.
I didn’t say I didn’t like it. It’s just not in my top 10. I love it for a lot of reasons. But I don’t feel it has aged especially well. Especially after Dark Knight. Hopefully we can still be friends! 😉
My top 10 Superhero movies:
10) The Wolverine
9) Unbreakable
8) The Incredibles
7) Iron Man
6) Captain America
5) Batman Begins
4) Avengers
3) Dark Knight Rises
2) Dark Knight
1) Watchmen
I was going to comment, but I think I’ll wait until we record our podcast.
For What it is worth, My top 10 is below, with what I am sure are some controversial choices. For the Record, I’m a huge fan Burton’s Batam, and that is probably because I was not a huge reader of the comics (I collected Green Lantern – so imagine my pain when the Reynolds fiasco was released). I actually also really enjoyed X-Men First Class, and unsure why it hasn’t appeared in anyone else list? I also loved Batam Begins.. X-Men First Class Batam Returns Unbreakable The Dark Knight Rises X-Men 2 The Incredibles Iron Man Batam Begins The Dark… Read more »
I don’t consider any of your choices controversial. I liked Burton’s Batman a lot as a Tim Burton movie. As a Batman movie, it was still better than what we were getting at the time. And better than much of what followed. My criticism of your list would be that you didn’t spread the love. It’s almost all Batman with some X-Men. I didn’t want to over-represent any one franchise which is why First Class didn’t make the cut. Also, it’s almost more of a 60s spy movie than a true super hero movie. I liked Unbreakable. I watched it… Read more »
I concur with your assessment of too much Batam. I just didn’t rate Spiderman, as much as I like Raimi (and Dunst).The simple truth is though, there has been a lot of Batmen Movies. No Superman…a terrible oversight, it should have been included. Reeve was fantastic. Not too young. Perhaps my memory has been ruined by the last couple of movies. Kyle Rayner? I normally couldn’t fault you on anything you write (and I have lurked here for a while!) but Rayner was a poor attempt by DC to grab some teenie-bopper support from Marvel. Apparently Superheroes can’t have Grey… Read more »
Yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with lists. There are fun. But I hate coming up with them. It’s hard for me to quantify one subjective piece of entertainment over another. There have been a lot of Batman movies. And Joel Schumacher aside, they are pretty consistently watchable. I didn’t even hate Batman Forever. I had extenuating circumstances on the Kyle Rayner thing. The timing was just right. I grew up with Hal Jordan, but mostly on the Super Friends. He had a cool costume, origin and powers. But zero personality. I didn’t read a lot of comic books. I… Read more »
I think we are of the same era lebeau, I got hooked on GL through a friends older brother who had the GL/Green Arrow collection, which were amazing, for a comic first timer like me. So I started collecting the new GL’s as they came out and you are right, by the late 80’s DC had pretty much ruined Hal Jordan, always doing this far out missions in space. I even started reading the John Stewart Mosaic series…..collected the complete run before it got canned – absolutely terrible, well they were well above my head in any case.(Incidentally, You ask… Read more »
They have done a remarkable job of rebuilding that brand. I think it helps that most of the current Hal fans probably weren’t reading his books in the 80s. Honestly, Emerald Twilight created a hunger for Hal Jordan stories that hadn’t been there for years. It was probably the best thing DC could have done for him in retrospect. I’m often critical of Geoff Johns who I think has lost all sense of how to tell a story at this point. But I have to give him credit for successful world building in the GL books. I don’t care for… Read more »
Mine would definitely go:
1) The Incredibles
2) Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
3) Batman Begins
4) Spider-Man
5) X2: X-Men United
6) Dick Tracy
7) The Dark Knight
8) Batman Returns
9) Hellboy II: The Golden Army
10) Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Another good list. Dick Tracy, for me, is a comic book movie. But not a super hero movie. Probably splitting hairs. While I like the movie, it ultimately left me feeling kind of flat. Beatty’s heart just doesn’t appear to be in it. So while he creates this visually interesting world, it feels bloodless. I’m excited to see Batman Returns on the list. I consider it to be under-rated. With both Hellboy films, I enjoyed the eye candy. But felt like they were empty calories. I don’t remember very much about the sequel at all. Scott Pilgrim entertained the heck… Read more »
The Dark Knight trilogy high above the rest.